Return-Path: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 10:42:56 -0400 Errors-To: gregt@Visix.COM Reply-To: tool-list@Visix.COM Originator: tool-list@visix.com Sender: tool-list@Visix.COM Precedence: bulk From: tool-list@Visix.COM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: TOOL-LIST digest 367 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Tool discussion TOOL-LIST Digest 367 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: TOOL-LIST digest 366 by Arsenio Santos 2) by Frances Grizzard 3) Re: by David Tenenbaum 4) Re: by kabir@sas.upenn.edu (Your pal Kabir) 5) Re: by kabir@sas.upenn.edu (Your pal Kabir) 6) Re: TOOL-LIST digest 366 by kabir@sas.upenn.edu (Your pal Kabir) 7) Re: by kabir@sas.upenn.edu (Your pal Kabir) 8) Re: by Nikodemus1@aol.com 9) Re:lyrics by haso@stud.unit.no (Harald Sorensen) 10) by Michael Shurpik 11) Re: by Scott J Stoddard 12) Re: t-shirt by Jon Adam Hebert 13) Re: by Michael Shurpik 14) Re: two questions by Jon Adam Hebert 15) Re: lyrics by Jon Adam Hebert 16) Re: Religion by Jon Adam Hebert 17) God's name by Michael Shurpik 18) Re:religion by Scott M Casey 19) Re: religion by Michael Shurpik 20) now i'm nothing by Toolophile@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Topic No. 1 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 95 08:16:42 -0700 From: Arsenio Santos To: tool-list@visix.com Subject: Re: TOOL-LIST digest 366 Message-ID: <199507121516.IAA26012@rock.west.ora.com> Okay, that's it. I've been lurking for something like 53 digests now, and I've had it. But, unlike the others who couldn't hack it, I'm not unsubscribing - I'm gonna flare up like herpes and tell y'all the Real Deal. 1) Re: Bottom. It's 'ugliness'. That's all I hear. That's all I've EVER heard. And you're talking to the heavy-metal bassist who feels tinnitus is his best and most faithful friend. No Bottom video either, unless it's some live bootleg shit. (For the record, this IS their best song. End of story. I have spoken.) 2) Re: lying. No, the Boys have never lied to us. Unless you count little things like what the band or their songs are about. 3) There are all kinds of little things Maynard signs in offmoments all over Undertow that have never been documented. 'Got you in a stranglehold, baby' used to be one of them, but how about the mutterings right before the final chorus of Flood? Know what I mean? 4) ObNonTool: Kabir, if you don't have it already, get the new Fear Factory. Quite tasty. I've worn a hole through my Killing Joke CD already. Now all I have to do is get the new King Crimson and final Coroner and I'll be all caught up in my purchases. Arsenio the Belabored ------------------------------ Topic No. 2 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 11:35:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Frances Grizzard To: multiple recipients of list Message-ID: Mike (Joe?), I never said I went regularly. I said the first church was like the experience should be and the second sucked. The second has always been my opinion on organized religion because the religions I know a little about have always been frightening to me. I refuse to be led about like a child forever and that is how most religions seem to me. I formed my own ideas on the subject a long time ago. I decided that I could believe whatever I wanted and fuck anybody that said otherwise. I don't consider myself to be religious, for the record. Something that may or may not be interesting but that's vaguely Tool-ish: there is a guy in my Zoology class that looks just like Maynard (right in his face). I think he thinks I am weird or something. I keep staring at him. ------------------------------ Topic No. 3 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 12:36:02 -0400 From: David Tenenbaum To: tool-list@visix.com Subject: Re: Message-ID: > Whenever you give yourself over to any group you are losing some portion of > your personal freedom, be it big or small. In my opinion, losing any more > freedom than I've already lost is not something I want to look into. As far > as it being peaceful and calming occasionally to people, I agree. My > question for Christians(And a few others) is; if you aren't lost, why do you > need someone else to ease your mind? Why do you need the security of one > God(Authority figure) in your life? Why, being secure in your own > spirituality, would you want someone/thing leading you? I think it is important to be clear about just what you mean when speaking of a topic like religion. For example "Whenever you give yourself over to any group". What does "give yourself over" mean exactly. Have we given ourselves over to the tool-list and thereby lost some portion of our personal freedom? (Perhaps) A religion makes demands on a person in the form of commitments of time, money, etc. In any `legitimate' religion (I'll explain what this means shortly) one chooses to do this, ie. follow rituals and rules, and could conceivably forsake it later. Granted, most religions urge their followers to remain in the faith and would try to convince a person not to cease to believe/observe etc. However, the freedom to believe/observe or not is fundamentally necessary. It is this choice that makes the good deserve reward and the evil deserve punishment in the eyes of many religions. As to the rest, I agree with the answers implied in `Opiate'. People allow themsleves to be convinced that they are lost, that they need someone to tell them how to live. People are told: "You are empty and meaningless. Belief will fill you and give you meaning" and they buy it. And they don't even bother to see if there are strings attached or ulterior motives. In its worst incarnation, religion can be voluntary mind control. At its best, religion can provide people with a moral system, and sometimes its a good one. Although the morality is often cloaked in dogma or found in repetitive observances, it is often there. I've met quite a few people that have become the nice people that they are by adhering to the prefabricated belief systems of organized religions. Well, there's a lot of stuff to deconstruct and dispute. Oh, I'd better mention my personal feelings so that the particular sort of fanatic that I am is clear. I was raised in a religious environment, I went to private school and studied religion throughout my schooling. I am an atheist. I know a fair bit about religion because I lived inside of it for a long time without really believing. I like the idea of religion as a tool (oops) which people can use to get at more fundamental ideas of how to be a decent person (more fundamental because I think that one can arrive at the goal without organized, dogmatic religion). D.D.T. ------------------------------ Topic No. 4 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 12:52:45 -0400 From: kabir@sas.upenn.edu (Your pal Kabir) To: tool-list@visix.com Subject: Re: Message-ID: At 9:06 PM 7/11/95, Frances Grizzard wrote: >one helluva day. that part about kabir's ugliness >was interesting. i didn't have time to check my mail now cut it out; this isn't funny :) _________kabir akhtar_________________________________________________________ | | Vice President, Kabir Fan Club | accidents won't happen if | Secretary, Intuitons Experimental Theater | you never leave your home | | ......................... | http://pobox.com/~kabir/ | ..................--prick | is: "Lick Me / Click Me" _|___________________________|______________________________________________ __ ------------------------------ Topic No. 5 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 12:52:59 -0400 From: kabir@sas.upenn.edu (Your pal Kabir) To: tool-list@visix.com Subject: Re: Message-ID: At 3:03 AM 7/12/95, Michael Shurpik wrote: >with. So how 'bout it? Religion poll? Think about it while you're deciding on >your favorite tool song. > Mike i'm not doing it :) but i'm somewhere around non-practicing agnostic. or something. _________kabir akhtar_________________________________________________________ | | Vice President, Kabir Fan Club | accidents won't happen if | Secretary, Intuitons Experimental Theater | you never leave your home | | ......................... | http://pobox.com/~kabir/ | ..................--prick | is: "Lick Me / Click Me" _|___________________________|______________________________________________ __ ------------------------------ Topic No. 6 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 12:59:05 -0400 From: kabir@sas.upenn.edu (Your pal Kabir) To: tool-list@visix.com Subject: Re: TOOL-LIST digest 366 Message-ID: >Okay, that's it. I've been lurking for something like 53 digests now, >and I've had it. But, unlike the others who couldn't hack it, I'm not >unsubscribing good - it would be bad if you were out ... >4) ObNonTool: Kabir, if you don't have it already, get the new Fear > Factory. Quite tasty. I've worn a hole through my Killing Joke > CD already. Now all I have to do is get the new King Crimson and > final Coroner and I'll be all caught up in my purchases. um, that cd COMES with a hole in it; just like all the other ones i've been listening to KMFDM nonstop recently. yes, you all cared :) -- yourpalkabir -------------------------- keep it away from the fire unless you want it to burn -- KMFDM / "ultra" ------------------------------ Topic No. 7 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 12:59:09 -0400 From: kabir@sas.upenn.edu (Your pal Kabir) To: tool-list@visix.com Subject: Re: Message-ID: >For example "Whenever you give yourself over to any group". What does "give >yourself over" mean exactly. Have we given ourselves over to the tool-list >and thereby lost some portion of our personal freedom? (Perhaps) yep i no longer control my in mailbox :) _________kabir akhtar_________________________________________________________ | | Vice President, Kabir Fan Club | accidents won't happen if | Secretary, Intuitons Experimental Theater | you never leave your home | | ......................... | http://pobox.com/~kabir/ | ..................--prick | is: "Lick Me / Click Me" _|___________________________|______________________________________________ __ ------------------------------ Topic No. 8 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:09:06 -0400 From: Nikodemus1@aol.com To: tool-list@visix.com Subject: Re: Message-ID: <950712140856_113352428@aol.com> i agree with e321tene that religion is a good tool to get people to act in a civil manner towards each other. But when they tell me to give up my problems to christ and let him take over, that just sets me off. I don't want christ to handle my problems. It's my life, let me do it. Let me live my own life. i'm an agnostic and think that many things throughout history have been made up in order to explain things people don't understand, or to give them comfort. if there is a god, it is a shame that everyone who lives in remote, desolate countries who have never even heard of God will go to hell because they didn't believe in him......i like 4 degrees. ------------------------------ Topic No. 9 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 20:13:27 +0200 From: haso@stud.unit.no (Harald Sorensen) To: tool-list@porsche.visix.com Subject: Re:lyrics Message-ID: <199507111813.AA02077@karl.stud.unit.no> >strange, I was under the impression that it was "hunger has kept me alive" That makes (almost) two of us... here's what I hear: "hunger that keeps me alive" +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Harald Sorensen (haso@stud.unit.no) from Oslo, Norway (stuck in Trondheim)| | - supports: Manchester United and Vaalerenga. | | - runs: A scandinavian United-mailinglist (mail me to subscribe). | | - listens to: TOOL-MonsterMagnet-PinkFloyd-FaithNoMore-BlackSabbath...... | | - has his own WWW-homepage at: http://www.stud.unit.no/~haso | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Topic No. 10 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:53:44 -0400 From: Michael Shurpik To: tool-list@visix.com Cc: Frances Grizzard Message-ID: <199507121853.OAA06771@utrecht.lcs.mit.edu> that guy in your zoo class must be one ugly motherfucker. Does he wear headgear and hold a magnifying glass up to his mouth on occasion? :) ------------------------------ Topic No. 11 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 95 13:08:03 MST From: Scott J Stoddard To: tool-list@visix.com Subject: Re: Message-ID: <9507121308.aa07222@idi.insight.com> > > i agree with e321tene that religion is a good tool to get people to act in a > civil manner towards each other. But when they tell me to give up my > problems to christ and let him take over, that just sets me off. I don't > want christ to handle my problems. It's my life, let me do it. Let me live > my own life. i'm an agnostic and think that many things throughout history > have been made up in order to explain things people don't understand, or to > give them comfort. if there is a god, it is a shame that everyone who lives > in remote, desolate countries who have never even heard of God will go to > hell because they didn't believe in him......i like 4 degrees. I have never heard of it like that..? I have always picked up that you were NOT supposed to just give your problems to God that they were for you to solve to become better... and people who never had the chance to hear of religion would have a chance after they died... (you are right, its not their fault and it shouldn't be).. ------------------------------ Topic No. 12 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 16:43:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Jon Adam Hebert To: tool-list@porsche.visix.com Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: t-shirt Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Jul 1995, Your pal Kabir wrote: > nice :) > > > yourpalkabir no doubt about it; > KMFDM sucks > > -- KMFDM / "sucks" > > ----------Thanks Jon. ------------------------------ Topic No. 13 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 17:55:40 -0400 From: Michael Shurpik To: tool-list@visix.com Cc: Scott J Stoddard Subject: Re: Message-ID: <199507122155.RAA08093@utrecht.lcs.mit.edu> > I have never heard of it like that..? You may not have, Scott, and so you're lucky. The fact is, though, that religion is a very powerful social tOOl...because of that, it has been perverted throughout the ages to serve people's needs. I don't think that any of us will disagree that some people preach that anyone not of their faith is hell-bound....luckily, other people are more accepting of different beliefs. What bothers me most about religion is that it's so easy to change it for your own needs...these televangelists get up on TV and say that the Bible says that God needs $5 million by Friday...people believe anything said by someone who seems to know more about religion than they do, but half the time it's made-up bullshit. A friend of mine was telling me that in Hebrew school, he was told that 'God' was an abbreviation for a 72-letter name that only a few sages still knew. What crock! I wish I could say that people should question their religions more often, but it doesn't seem like there's much to compare them against, except their respective holy texts (which are highly interpretable)... mike ------------------------------ Topic No. 14 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 16:59:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Jon Adam Hebert To: tool-list@porsche.visix.com Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: two questions Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jul 1995 Toolophile@aol.com wrote: > then later in the song it sounds like Maynard says, hatred keeps me alive, > happiness keeps me alive weakness keeps me alive, guilt keeps me alive. So > is my mind doing strange things and adding happiness to the second part? Or > does he sing that there? And if he does, why is happiness in the second > part, but not the first? (realizing I'm way over the "two" questions I > said). I always though he said "angriness keeps me alive." Jon. ------------------------------ Topic No. 15 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 17:00:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Jon Adam Hebert To: tool-list@porsche.visix.com Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: lyrics Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Michael Shurpik wrote: > wow, that's fucked up. I just listened to it, and in all honesty, it > sounds like "haugliness." I guess loneliness makes more sense, but I can > see how one could hear happiness. > mike > This gives me an idea. Right after the ...fed stuff, he says "It makes me feel UGLY." Maybe UGLINESS keeps him alive? Jon. ------------------------------ Topic No. 16 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 17:08:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Jon Adam Hebert To: tool-list@visix.com Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Religion Message-ID: I am a 1) Toolthiest 2) Toolgnostic 3) Toolstian 4) From the Church of Latter Day Tool 5) All of the above 6) Someone with a lot of time on their hands. Jon. ------------------------------ Topic No. 17 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 19:04:47 -0400 From: Michael Shurpik To: tool-list@porsche.visix.com Subject: God's name Message-ID: <199507122304.TAA08542@utrecht.lcs.mit.edu> please ignore my Hebrew example from the previous letter...my friend and I assumed that this was a fairy-tale of sorts, but it does in fact seem to be a component of the Jewish religion. Mike ------------------------------ Topic No. 18 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 19:36:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Scott M Casey To: tool-list@visix.com Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re:religion Message-ID: Well, as far as this whole church thing goes, I thought I'd add to the discussion instead of just lurking. I don't consider myself religious at this point in time and I don't see that it will change any time soon. I grew up going to Catholic church but never really paid too much attention to what was going on. Quite a while ago I told my parents that I didn't want to go any more and they didn't have any problem with it. Hell, I don't think they've hardly gone any more since I stopped. Anyway, someone was asking questions about why Christians needed guidance and a God. I feel that a large part of it has to do with fear and uncertainty. I think a lot of people however long ago didn't like or believe any ideas of evolution so they tried to come up with other answers as to our (humans) existence. I know that religions have been around a lot longer that any theories of evolution but that uncertainty still bothered people. So the belief that we were all created this way and have always been this way relieved peoples minds. Which leads to who/what created everything? A Supreme Being of some sort, a God. Now everyone must pray to this God. I think that the part about fear comes from not knowing about the "other side" of death. People didn't want to just live, put up with all of the bullshit that they had to for their whole lives and then just die and have that be the end of it. People wanted more and wanted to know that there was more so that death wouldn't be so scary. Well, that is some of how I feel about why there is religion but that doesn't necessarily mean that it may be true for all of the various religions around the world. Now I have a question kind of relating to this. What does everyone think about Satanism, the "evil religion"? Personally, I think it is pretty much a joke. Just like people praying to God to be all holy, praying to Satan to be all evil is rather messed up. All of this shit about sacrifices and whatever is ridiculous. I bring this up because we all know that religious and conservative people belive that "heavy metal" and "hard rock" music is evil and the work of the devil. Since we are all here because of Tool and our enjoyment of their talents, how any of this might be affected. We do have a lot of conservative Republicans that are getting ready to try and take over the ol' White House and they have a pretty good chance at it. We all know about Bob Dole's attack on the music and arts industry, even though "True Lies" was a nice entertaining family movie. :) Well, I'll leave it at that for now. Bye all. Scott ------------------------------ Topic No. 19 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 21:56:19 -0400 From: Michael Shurpik To: tool-list@visix.com Cc: Scott M Casey Subject: Re: religion Message-ID: <199507130156.VAA10005@utrecht.lcs.mit.edu> does anyone know more about satanism? I'd really be curious to understand what it's about...the concept of being evil just for the sake of it is kind of silly, unless you just want to get in the face of society. I've heard that satanism revolves (or could revolve) around the concept of physical pleasure and satisfaction of the self, which is a lot more coherent. I'm sure that there are cultists that butcher animals, but some people think that anyone who enjoys 'dark' entertainment (i.e. the emotions expressed in tool) is a satanist...those people avoid the evils of life by shutting them out and fearing them, instead of learning about them. As a result, they attack many things that aren't bad at all... Take AD&D - because of all the nuts ranting about Satanic D&D in the 80's, they took out the demons & devils in the 2nd edition monster guide. It's such a boring book now! we do need to be concerned with censorship...especially on the net. ------------------------------ Topic No. 20 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 10:05:43 -0400 From: Toolophile@aol.com To: tool-list@porsche.visix.com Subject: now i'm nothing Message-ID: <950713100541_113984760@aol.com> and all that i can do is break myself in two which was brought about by our first winner: nothing said: >i went to lalapalooza in george washington on the 4th of july >and it was much better than i had expected. yeah, it was much better than i expected too. Sonic Youth of course, rocked. mike said: >If you love Jesus, let's have a hallelujah. Can I get an amen? amen-baa Can I get a hallelujah? Hallelu-bah. not really worth sending. please forgive me. todd ------------------------------ End of TOOL-LIST Digest 367 ***************************